Page 1 of 2

So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:55 am
by Arkon
Test cuts based on sparring experience:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=418lhMcIx48

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:21 am
by codex
wow, nicely done. Very good cutting too everyone has gotten so good at cutting now. I'm not sure if I can cut that well.

Interesting to see that cuts fairly closely resembling the ones you do in tournament seem fairly likely to still do serious damage most of the time.

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:15 am
by Arkon
codex wrote:wow, nicely done. Very good cutting too everyone has gotten so good at cutting now. I'm not sure if I can cut that well.

Interesting to see that cuts fairly closely resembling the ones you do in tournament seem fairly likely to still do serious damage most of the time.

What do you think about it from gameplay perspective?

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:01 pm
by codex
Well, I'm not sure precisely what you are alluding to but here is my thought.

1) This guy is a good fencer. His cuts in the tournament vids are clean and precise, edge-alignment is good, and he is hitting with some force. He's better in this sense than 8/10 guys you see fighting in the tournaments from my experience. He's probably trained for at least a year or two with a good coach (or he's an instructor himself and probably has 2 years or more training, maybe a lot more)

2) I'm pretty certain they are cherry picking some of his best hits on video. I do the same thing after a tournament in order to gloat and feel good about myself.

3) I also believe he is cutting a bit better at the target than he is in the tournament. He has time to prep it,

4) His cutting sword is extremely sharp, I would guess they just did a professional sharpening job shortly before he did the cutting videos.


So in kind of ideal conditions, this guy who is a good / well trained fencer, even with a quick, short distance cut he seems to be able to cut half-way through the equivalent of an arm or all the way through with a full-distance cut. In slightly less ideal conditions he probably still does a much more minor wound.

But in game (Codex) terms I think this guy shows what someone with 4 or more MP and some 'Martial Feats' (mastercuts, clearly, versetzen, zucken, nachreisen etc.) to give him a few 'free dice', so he's able to do some multi-dice attacks and counters can do. The cut effect you are seeing would be a Critical in the Codex - a 2, 3 or 4 dice attack. If you play with a hit point ceiling it means you can be killed or maimed with a single cut.

I'd call this guy a 4th or 5th level fighter (or equivalent). Who also has some specific cutting training as part of his learning curve, though obviously no real experience killing people (one assumes)

Longsword 1-10 damage (maybe +1 for strength though he didn't look that big, maybe +2 for weapon specialization which would represent practice at cutting) and he hits in a critical with say a 3 dice 'Chop' attack, that's 4 -40 damage (maybe +3). I'd probably also throw in another +1 or +2 for having a freshly sharpened sword.

Average of ~ 20 damage on one of those hits would kill a lot of characters, assuming they were unarmored.


So I think it jibes pretty well with the Codex rules. What do you think?

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:19 pm
by Galloglaich
he's ranked #10 longsword in the world right now according to these guys

http://hemaratings.com/fighters/details/95/

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:47 am
by Arkon
codex wrote:Well, I'm not sure precisely what you are alluding to but here is my thought.

1) This guy is a good fencer. His cuts in the tournament vids are clean and precise, edge-alignment is good, and he is hitting with some force. He's better in this sense than 8/10 guys you see fighting in the tournaments from my experience. He's probably trained for at least a year or two with a good coach (or he's an instructor himself and probably has 2 years or more training, maybe a lot more)

2) I'm pretty certain they are cherry picking some of his best hits on video. I do the same thing after a tournament in order to gloat and feel good about myself.

3) I also believe he is cutting a bit better at the target than he is in the tournament. He has time to prep it,

4) His cutting sword is extremely sharp, I would guess they just did a professional sharpening job shortly before he did the cutting videos.


So in kind of ideal conditions, this guy who is a good / well trained fencer, even with a quick, short distance cut he seems to be able to cut half-way through the equivalent of an arm or all the way through with a full-distance cut. In slightly less ideal conditions he probably still does a much more minor wound.

But in game (Codex) terms I think this guy shows what someone with 4 or more MP and some 'Martial Feats' (mastercuts, clearly, versetzen, zucken, nachreisen etc.) to give him a few 'free dice', so he's able to do some multi-dice attacks and counters can do. The cut effect you are seeing would be a Critical in the Codex - a 2, 3 or 4 dice attack. If you play with a hit point ceiling it means you can be killed or maimed with a single cut.

I'd call this guy a 4th or 5th level fighter (or equivalent). Who also has some specific cutting training as part of his learning curve, though obviously no real experience killing people (one assumes)

Longsword 1-10 damage (maybe +1 for strength though he didn't look that big, maybe +2 for weapon specialization which would represent practice at cutting) and he hits in a critical with say a 3 dice 'Chop' attack, that's 4 -40 damage (maybe +3). I'd probably also throw in another +1 or +2 for having a freshly sharpened sword.

Average of ~ 20 damage on one of those hits would kill a lot of characters, assuming they were unarmored.


So I think it jibes pretty well with the Codex rules. What do you think?

Interesting. Is his opponent lower level than than him? What kind of people are majority of ones fighting in tournaments?

Anyway, it's amazing what a little training can do. It makes me wonder what kind of monsters of characters would actual knights and other people training since young age be.

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:49 am
by Arkon
Galloglaich wrote:he's ranked #10 longsword in the world right now according to these guys

http://hemaratings.com/fighters/details/95/

I wonder how HEMA compares to MMA nowadays in stuff like that. Looking at the HEMA tumblrs I can't help an impression that there are much more serious athlete types there nowadays.

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:14 pm
by Galloglaich
Arkon wrote:
Interesting. Is his opponent lower level than than him? What kind of people are majority of ones fighting in tournaments?


Well, if he is in the top 10 of competition fencers in the world, yes most would be 'lower level' to continue the game analogy. In Swordfish it's a fairly high level of training for most people so probably level 2-3 on average, if we can say the analogy holds.

Anyway, it's amazing what a little training can do. It makes me wonder what kind of monsters of characters would actual knights and other people training since young age be.


Indeed. Although one of the curious things we have learned about this particular Late Medieval, Central European unarmored (Blossfechten) fencing system you see here, (what in German was called the "Kunst Des Fechten" of Johannes Liechtenauer) is that it is actually more closely associated with other estates, Burghers in particular, professional mercenaries or bodyguards (especially what the Germans called 'Trabant' or 'Satelites'), even University students, a bit more than it is with the nobility. We have probably 20-30% of the Masters associated in some way with the knightly estates (like Fiore, Ringeck, and Ludwig von Eyb), whereas about 60% were burghers, mostly craftsmen (like Joachim Meyer), as well as a few University students, some Jews, common soldiers, and even a priest (Dobringer). If we look at the people who applied to hold Fechtschuler, the combination fencing class / tournaments which seemed to be the focus of training for this kind of fencing it's even more skewed, probably about 80% craftsmen, 10% merchants and other estates, 5% Trabant. Participants included mostly burghers, some University students and mercenaries, a few knights, and even some peasants.

We also interestingly show a couple of women involved, notably in Strasbourg on two reported occasions.

In the second half of the 15th Century and into the 16th the emphasis on the rapier fencing that emerges is increasingly in the Courtier and Student estates (notably the Bolognese fencing) though nobles started getting more into it as well and the burghers also stay involved.

Medieval Knights from the aristocratic estates (not all were) seemed did somewhat different training which emphasize horseback riding skills, lance work, acrobatics and feats of strength (stuff like vaulting onto a horse or jumping onto a table), grappling and hunting, and of course the joust and all kinds of armored combat. They did also do some fencing but the emphasis was much more on the armored fencing (harnischefechten) which was simpler and more grappling oriented.


Anyway that said, I agree 100% seeing what somebody at a really high level of skill from back in the day would probably be a really extraordinary experience. I think we are probably about 1/3 of the way to getting to a basic competence in fencing in that community in terms of how much of the system which you find in the books is actually used in fencing in our current revival. Still some way to go and that is just with the KDF, there are dozens of other manuals like the Iberian ones which different fencing techniques which don't even have translations out yet.

Galloglaich wrote:he's ranked #10 longsword in the world right now according to these guys

http://hemaratings.com/fighters/details/95/

I wonder how HEMA compares to MMA nowadays in stuff like that. Looking at the HEMA tumblrs I can't help an impression that there are much more serious athlete types there nowadays.


The number of people doing HEMA is a tiny fraction of the number of people doing MMA. It's probably like 100 -1. Top prizes in MMA are in the multi-millions of dollars while top prizes in HEMA are more like a sword maybe worth $2000 or so. And I don't think many of our guys are doing steroids yet! :lol:

But yes I think the skill and fitness is clearly going up, I don't think we are anywhere near the high level MMA guys but it's clearly gotten much higher in terms of fitness and 'seriousness' as you put it since a few years ago.

That said I was in a tournament this May and I'm nowhere near athletic and I still won my pool. :twisted: Admittedly a smaller regional tournament, my first in two years. I did notice the general quality of the fencing was way up.

Keep in mind, Thomas Nyzell at number 10 in the world is still also pretty elite within HEMA. The top 30 worldwide or so are probably generally impressive on a similar level, but it declines precipitously from there.


G

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:22 pm
by Galloglaich
Here is my fat ass from my last tournament, you'll notice a much cruder form of fencing and sloppier technique, but I still think I would have caused some injuries if it was a sharp. would have taken a few too since I didn't always protect against afterblow...

cow noises during slow-mo a free bonus

https://vimeo.com/220264985

Re: So... someone did this

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:46 pm
by Thaeris
Nice - that was a fun watch.

I think I did in fact learn something from watching that - you maintain a low vom tag near your center of mass while minimizing the amount of movement your hands must perform from that central location. This also minimizes your opponent's chances of getting into one of your openings. You do not attempt any strikes which are difficult to perform in relation to the others - I did not see one zwerchau strike from overhead on your end (I am also quite slow with those). You minimize the amount of movement you must perform when executing a strike; all the while, you follow your opponent's weapon to the extent possible, as binding is not really possible with blunts. This gives your opponent few openings - in the case of the opponent in the video, he resorts to a change in guard (with much movement) to execute a different strike. Most of the time, you were already there. :p

And so, conclusion notes:

1. One of the most important notes of the "Dobringer Codex" is that strength and power, etc., is not essential for the Art to be effective. Your opponent was convinced his better speed, agility, and mobility would best you. He seldom got the first strike in return. In retrospect, knowledge of position is superior to application of force if we reduce the point to raw analytics.

2. Use of binding and winding is a practical way of reducing the amount of movement that must be used in combat. This ties into the first point by increasing the fighter's control of his position in a fight. I think a current issue with what little I've experienced of HEMA is that we tend to focus on strikes, as they tend to be easily accessible for study and practice. I believe your opponent fell into that mold, and thus lost out due to the subtleties of knowledge of position.

3. People like powerful strikes, but need to get the blade into a better position to work for them while providing a defense. Needs more shielhau!

I'd love to hear a counter or follow-up assessment. :D