Horses, types and rules on them

Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Sat May 21, 2011 7:27 pm

Lets discuss the deluxe warhorses here.

gotta go, more to come.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby Galloglaich » Sun May 22, 2011 3:10 am

Ok so a good place to start.... the selection I have in the core rules right now is a bit ... random. Maybe we should create a more comprehensive list. So you don't think a rouncy should be a trained warhorse?

I need to add the Shwieck from Poland and the Mongolian Aduur, for sure, and probably some other Arab, Spanish and Central Asian types.

Lets revamp the horse combat rules a bit, I think it would be beneficial.

G.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Sun May 22, 2011 3:45 pm

So for starters, I am not an equestrian and my knowledge of horses is pretty shitty, all I know about rouncys can be summed up with wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouncey

It says there that rouncys were an all purpose riding horse rather than a specific war horse, which would be a destrier or courser. It says they could also be used as pack horses. They were a cheaper horse, and are supposed to have been used for pursuit or long distance riding. So I think that they don't quite count as a war horse, though used in war they may be.

Before we discuss rather they are warhorses are not, I want to go over what your rules say a deluxe warhorse can do.
1. they can accelerate to charge as a free action (x2 doesn't cost anything) and their riders get +1 to init. I'm fine with this, but I don't think rouncys count. To me such acceleration is the province only of charger types (coursers and destriers).

2. courage, bonus die on saves vs fear. To me this isn't that important cuz I don't have many fear effects at present in my game. However I agree that this does make sense, though again I think that bonus die comes from the training to make them warhorses, which to me is coursers and destriers.

3. strength, add horses str to atk and dmg rolls when charging. I don't think they should add str to atk rolls since I don't see how being on a moving horse makes targets harder to hit. But I am fine with bonus to dmg rolls and I think that all horses should confer this due to increased speed.

4. Agility, allow riders with mounted combat to ride check in place of defense checks. I'm fine with this, but i'm not sure how much use it will be to knights. lvl 10 fighter has an active defense (assuming he has a sword or shield) of 13 (add dex) maybe 14. With bigger shield it could be higher. Now his ride maxes out at 13, add same dex score, 14. Without any other misc. bonuses, the scores are pretty similar. I think this will only help non-fighter types since their levels are much higher than their BAB's.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Sun May 22, 2011 3:53 pm

I also don' t think that the palfry should have the courage and acceleration bonus's since everything I have seen says that they were riding horses. Of course you can still use them in battle if you want. Also I think (as you said) that they should be able to maintain x2 without the rider using any dice. As far as stats, I thought that palfry's were riding horses, not war, why are they so strong? According to wiki breeds that amble tend to be less strong than trotting breeds so wouldn't they be more jennet like in terms of strength and con? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palfrey

As far as adding additional breeds, what would be the point? Lets compare your jennet and hobbie. they are identical (since the str, and dex difference isn't enough to change the modifier) in all ways except the hobbie has more health. I am using version 25.0003.

So if you simply want more breeds like this, just keep renaming the hobbie and jennet, unless you have ideas of how they would be different. Though wiki also says that the jennet had the gaited pace, so would we also give it the palfry's ability?

(note: I don't know if a hobbie should have the courage, acceleration traits, but a jennet definetly should.)
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Sun May 22, 2011 6:42 pm

When I said I didn't think a rouncy was a war horse above, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be warhorses vis-a-vis the need a ride check of dc 15 to not run away. I'm just saying I don't think they should have the acceleration bonus. Also I think their should be a difference between war trained rouncys and not war trained rouncys. The only difference would be price, and the courage ability.

However I don't think palfry's are warhorses in any way.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby Galloglaich » Sun May 22, 2011 11:45 pm

I think maybe what we are talking about is the difference between a warhorse, and a charger. Jennets, Ardurs, Schwaiks, Palfreys and Rounceys were all used as warhorses, and the ones which are trained for warfare were much more valuable and useful in combat than the ones just trained to ride ... but a charger for use by heavy cavalry is a different level of animal. Maybe the rules should differentiate between an actual charger and a warhorse.

G.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:15 am

I think only chargers should have the acceleration bonus.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby Galloglaich » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:11 pm

Training warhorses:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... 5&start=20

in his "Manuel de cavalerie"(1742), pp. 137-139, F. Robichon de la Guérinière discusses war horses, starting with the prerequisites:

relatively (to modern sport horses) small: ideally 14 hands 1 or 2
a good mouth (responsive) with a good head (steady)
strong and supple; energetic but not too hot
no vices or problems: who wants to engage an enemy while correcting their horse?
and moving on to discuss their training, including specific exercises:

suppling at trot, shoulder-in, and haunches-out (which are still clearly part of general XXIth century equitation)
pirouettes and roll-backs (still present for upper-level dressage and cow horses)
combat circles (now found only in disciplines linked to the bullfight?)
passades (still found in polo)
and desensitization training:

sounds, fire, smoke, gunpowder, drums, trumpets, pikes, swords, etc.
gradual desensitization works for all of the above
(shooting a pistol and banging a snare at feeding times is also effective!)
riding outside of the training ring will naturally expose a horse to many things that would frighten its more sheltered colleagues


Gives me some things to think about vis a vis modeling warhorses in the Codex Rules.

G
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby drkguy3107 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:41 pm

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... 5&start=20

I know that you post here, but the image at the bottom is fascinating to me.

I guess horses's were trained to attack targets.

Also I think the kick of a horse should do way more damage.
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Re: Horses, types and rules on them

Postby Galloglaich » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Not necessarily trained, there is some suspicion that those are entertainers, basically circus horses.

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