Real AD&D stats test

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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Ioannes » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:45 am

Daeruin wrote:In my homebrew system, I created two "sub-attributes" for each standard one. They were related to each other, but one could be a certain degree higher than the other. So for example Constitution consisted of Health and Stamina, where health was your resistance to disease and stamina was your endurance. Strength consisted of Brawn (pure muscle strength) and Size. Will consisted of Backbone (conviction, faith, resistance to temptation, etc.) and Grit (ability to ignore pain and fatigue). I think those divisions helped model a lot of real world situations like you're describing. Often the two aspects are related, but they aren't always the same. Of course a system like that often starts to get more and more complex. I never actually used my homebrew, but it's fun to tinker around with now and then.


I saw something along those lines in a 2nd Edition product. . . I'd have to dig in the library to find it. It was fun, but it was information overload, especially if you used all the other optional rules from that supplement.
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Galloglaich » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:06 am

Yeah no offense to the SCA but I think the dynamic is a little different with HEMA due to using the historical sources, I think most of the upper echelon HEMA fighters are already way past the best SCA fighters out there, I know that is a controversial statement, but I think it's true. Hopefully some of these super skilled SCAdians or "Superdukes" out there that I keep hearing about will start to show up at open HEMA tournaments in the near future and we can actually find out. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

I did no-holds barred stick-fighting for 15 years on and off before I got involved with HEMA, and I learned five times as much in 2 years of HEMA training than all of that time put together. I have also probably had to spend 5 or 6 years unlearning bad habits I picked up during my stick-fighting days before I got much further than the basics in HEMA.

Right now they estimate* HEMA includes 12,000 - 15,000 dues-paying practitioners worldwide, probably double that if you count dilettantes. So it's not quite the tiny fringe thing it was five or six years ago, it's been growing pretty rapidly. I don't think we'll be outnumbered by the SCA much longer frankly, unless SCA starts to change some and adopts more historical techniques in which case it could start growing too.

But the one thing I do agree with you on is that with Martial Arts of any kind the old man with skills can and will dominate the young Turk with speed and strength. Just watch Matt Galas fight, I think he's in his 50's. But he is also fit and conditioned. There aren't many fat guys like me left in the upper echelons of this emerging sport.

G.

*from a survey they did on behalf of some equipment manufacturers earlier this year
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Ioannes » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:56 am

Galloglaich wrote:Yeah no offense to the SCA but I think the dynamic is a little different with HEMA due to using the historical sources, I think most of the upper echelon HEMA fighters are already way past the best SCA fighters out there, I know that is a controversial statement, but I think it's true. Hopefully some of these super skilled SCAdians or "Superdukes" out there that I keep hearing about will start to show up at open HEMA tournaments in the near future and we can actually find out. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.


That wasn't intended to be a 'let's start a pissing match' statement. That was intended to say that the scary old men are created by having people dedicate themselves to a fighting style for decades, and HEMA hasn't had a large, active community long enough to have many of those. Middle-aged guys can learn a fighting style, but they aren't going to get it like a middle aged guy who has been doing it since his teens.

And if you've never fought a good SCAdian, you have no basis for comparison. And they aren't likely to spontaneously show up in a forum where everyone else is going freak out and treat them like pariahs as soon as they find out who and what they are. Most of us aren't interested in that. As long as HEMA practicioners tend to be a bunch of elitist assholes, we aren't going to bother dealing with them often.
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Arkon » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:40 pm

Ioannes wrote:And if you've never fought a good SCAdian, you have no basis for comparison. And they aren't likely to spontaneously show up in a forum where everyone else is going freak out and treat them like pariahs as soon as they find out who and what they are. Most of us aren't interested in that. As long as HEMA practicioners tend to be a bunch of elitist assholes, we aren't going to bother dealing with them often.

So, the two factions don't like each other. Why won't they meet somewhere and sort it out like men?
...
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Galloglaich » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:07 pm

SCA people have come down here and fought with us many times over the years, one of the guys in my club was a long time SCA member though he did rapier mostly not heavy combat.

The last SCAdian who came down here from Baton Rouge did alright, he was a competent fighter with good timing, good sense of distance and he was fast and cut hard, but one of my students beat him over and over again because he didn't know the basic longsword guards and there was an easy way to get him with a simple mastercut.

I'm sorry to come off 'pissing contest', I don't really intend to, but there are some reasons why I think it's important to make some distinctions and be candid. I have to figure out how to do that and still be more diplomatic.

I understand what you mean about people taking a long time to learn deep grasp of a Martial Arts system. There have of course been quite a few HEMA fighters who have been doing HEMA for 12 years or more. But I will say this. You can 'get up to speed' with HEMA training, done something more like Martial Arts training as it is today, taught by people who now know at least the basics of the various systems, much more quickly than you could 10 or even 5 years ago.

I know you have already seen this video but I repost it to emphasize the point, or ask a question. Are any SCA groups training like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk

I mean, my group damn sure isn't. But I know of about 10 HEMA groups in Europe and 4 or 5 in the US who are doing training 3-5 times per week including fitness training. It's a different animal.

I'm not trying to pick a fight about it at all, I'm just calling a spade a spade.

And I don't think it's a reflection on SCA people in any way, it's a different set of priorities. SCA folks are, as you have said, getting together in very large groups to have fun and participate in a combat sport. Many HEMA groups are now approaching this as serious martial-arts training. I think that makes a difference. And I think training from historical manuals makes an even bigger difference. There is no reason the SCA couldn't do both if they wanted to, but at this point it's not happening, at least as far as I'm aware. Correct me if I'm wrong.

G.
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Galloglaich » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:13 pm

Ioannes wrote:And if you've never fought a good SCAdian, you have no basis for comparison. And they aren't likely to spontaneously show up in a forum where everyone else is going freak out and treat them like pariahs as soon as they find out who and what they are. Most of us aren't interested in that. As long as HEMA practicioners tend to be a bunch of elitist assholes, we aren't going to bother dealing with them often.


I'm not trying to be an elitist asshole (please keep in mind the internet / email / forums can distort meanings and subtext somewhat.

But I have a problem with the idea that people just learning by trial and error can surpass what are in the manuals.

In other words, I'm not being an elitist about HEMA people, if I am being an elitist about the fencing manuals and the ancient Masters, who I believe knew more than any of us today.


European Renaissance Martial Arts do not belong to HEMA / WMA people. I have pointed out many times it was actually people from the SCA who largely got the ball rolling with this. SCA people can and do study the period fencing manuals, you yourself clearly have been studying Fiore and Silver somewhat already. Does that make you a HEMA practitioner? If you are training with HEMA techniques, I would say yes. Can you be in the SCA and also be a HEMA practitioner? I would again, say yes.

And I think if you keep up with it, especially if you go fight in a tournament and a couple of training events, you will find that you can beat some of the most experienced SCA fighters who haven't done that kind of training.

The books make the difference, not any HEMA club or group or individuals. We are all the same as you. My reverence is for the ancient art, the rest of us are frankly today neophytes. There are no Masters alive today, no matter what some people may claim on the HEMA side of the fence. But I believe even a neophyte level of historically based martial arts training gives you an order of magnitude advantage over trial and error, just like even amateur golden gloves boxing training or high school wrestling will give you an edge over a street fighter.

G.
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Re: Real AD&D stats test

Postby Galloglaich » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Anyway, my apologies to everyone if I came across too opinionated here, sometimes I am too argumentative for my own good.

G.
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