Borgia show

The lower Decatur Street of RpG's, anything goes at the Abbey...

Re: Borgia show

Postby Galloglaich » Sun May 05, 2013 10:51 pm

For me the Italian Renaissance is pretty much over by the 16th Century ;)

G
Galloglaich
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Borgia show

Postby drkguy3107 » Mon May 06, 2013 1:32 am

On episode 5 of Borgia, I changed my mine, I like it a lot.
http://www.myarmoury.com ~ The most enlightening community on the web.
drkguy3107
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:17 am

Re: Borgia show

Postby Arkon » Mon May 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Galloglaich wrote:I actually sort of agree with you on Lord of the Rings; it was written for young adults for the most part I think, as a trilogy of novels it's notoriously ... not terrific, it's main achievement was the genre setting and some of the names and so on, which are derived essentially from Volsunga Saga / Ring of the Nibelungen, plus some Finnish and Scandinavian stories (the names Gandalf and Frodo for example are names of Viking chieftains), but fleshed out in a pretty cool way; i.e. the creation of the whole genre of fantasy setting that DnD among many others was primarily based on. The Silmarilion was sort of his highest achievement, and that is really just a setting and not a story.

But as a story, in LOTR the only characters that were really interesting at all was Gollum I guess, and the ring itself.

So the movie did improve on that to some extent by fleshing out characters like Aragorn, Elrond, Saruman, and bringing in Liv Tylers character and so forth... but they also lost a lot of what made the setting kind of poetic.

I'd say it was about an even swap. I liked the first and third movie, the second not so much. Wasn't very impressed by the Hobbit (though I wanted to be)

G

The LotR movies are full of stupid dungeonpunk and "kewl" action scenes. And canon rape.

Middle Earth was based on Dark Ages and their myths and there's no place for dungeonpunk in it.
That's how for example Elves should look:
http://tednasmith.mymiddleearth.com/2012/07/08/the-kinslaying-at-alqualonde/

The illustration is by Ted Nasmith who was sending his images to professor Tolkien when he was a teen and who was consulting his professional illustrations with Christopher Tolkien.
Now, take a look at this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Harold_dead_bayeux_tapestry.png/800px-Harold_dead_bayeux_tapestry.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Tapisserie_bato1.jpg/800px-Tapisserie_bato1.jpg

Looks familiar?

The same with Gondor and plate armour. Gondor wasn't supposed to be a Renaissance period country.
...
Arkon
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 am

Re: Borgia show

Postby zarlor » Tue May 07, 2013 12:34 am

Arkon wrote:The LotR movies are full of stupid dungeonpunk and "kewl" action scenes. And canon rape.

Middle Earth was based on Dark Ages and their myths and there's no place for dungeonpunk in it.
That's how for example Elves should look:
http://tednasmith.mymiddleearth.com/2012/07/08/the-kinslaying-at-alqualonde/

The illustration is by Ted Nasmith who was sending his images to professor Tolkien when he was a teen and who was consulting his professional illustrations with Christopher Tolkien.
Now, take a look at this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Harold_dead_bayeux_tapestry.png/800px-Harold_dead_bayeux_tapestry.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Tapisserie_bato1.jpg/800px-Tapisserie_bato1.jpg

Looks familiar?

The same with Gondor and plate armour. Gondor wasn't supposed to be a Renaissance period country.


To my mind that's just getting caught up in the idea that a book and movies "based on" a book are somehow the same thing. I view them as just two completely different things, utterly separate from each other. A trick I learned to do a LONG time ago and found I've been a happier movie goer ever since. ;) Although in this case, I don't really care because the books bored the crap out of me, but at least the movies were interesting. Maybe it's the hindsight of having just better storytellers that have built upon Tolkein's work, but nevertheless those books just don't engage me. Now Frankenstein is probably boring as all hell to some folks, but I loved the crap out of that book. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual movie of it, for that matter, since nobody has actually made one of that book either. :P
Lenny Zimmermann

"A soldier uses arms merely with skill, whereas a knight uses them with virtuous intention." - Pomponio Torelli, 1596.

- Systeme D'armes, New Orleans, Louisiana
http://www.sdanola.com
zarlor
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:50 pm
Location: Metairie, LA

Re: Borgia show

Postby Galloglaich » Tue May 07, 2013 1:34 am

I'm kind of with you Arkon, but I also agree with Lenny that in this case what they made was more or less successful. They did not grab me the way the books did (when I was 13) but they were pretty good.

That painting of the elves at war was terrific. GIves you the sense of these people partly from another world... but also part of the "Dark Ages"

I have (or had... not sure if I still have it?) a wonderful book called the "Tolkein Bestiary" which has some fantastic art that really looks very migration era like the setting of the original stories (Volsunga Saga was written down in the 12th century, from stories which were probably invented in the 8th or 9th, based on events that occured (the invasion of the Burgundians territory by the Huns in the service of the Romans) in the 5th Century. I was trying to find a google image search for his elves with no luck, but the dwarves are pretty cool too.

Image

But the elves are vastly better ... if I can find the book when I get back home (I'm working out of town right now) I'll take some photos.

That said, Tolkein himself didn't really do these stories justice - he was principally interested in the languages first and foremost, and a kind of morality tale secondarily. I do like his elves (what DnD nerd doesn't) and am delighted that he fleshed out the kind of sanitized them and made them a bit boring compared to the ones from the sagas (Tolkein made them much more like angels, the Norse and Finnish elves were rowdy and horny bunch of creatures, which you get a litle bit of a hint of in The Hobbit but by LOTR they are pretty sanitized). Still, he made a cool world, I'll give him that, and he included some of the poetic elements of the original old stories.

It's annoying that in the film, as in so many of the video games and RPG's, they made the elves kind of Samurai-esque rather than Dark Ages.

I for one would love to see someone do Volsunga saga or Hrolf Kraki story that was at least in the ballpark. There was a German production of the medieval chivalric minstrel version of the story The Ring of the Nibelungen which got maybe, 20% there (which I liked) but I'd kill to see one based on the original, older, more raw stories, in the 80% range. Maybe a Guillermo Del Toro effort? Not sure Hollywood could do it though. But I think it would be a better story than Tolkeins.

G
Last edited by Galloglaich on Tue May 07, 2013 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Galloglaich
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Borgia show

Postby Galloglaich » Tue May 07, 2013 1:39 am

Ah... found an elf. Two elves.

Image

Image

G
Galloglaich
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Borgia show

Postby Galloglaich » Tue May 07, 2013 1:43 am

Found more... the artists name was Victor Ambrus


Image

Image
Galloglaich
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Borgia show

Postby Arkon » Tue May 07, 2013 2:33 am

zarlor wrote:To my mind that's just getting caught up in the idea that a book and movies "based on" a book are somehow the same thing. I view them as just two completely different things, utterly separate from each other. A trick I learned to do a LONG time ago and found I've been a happier movie goer ever since. ;) Although in this case, I don't really care because the books bored the crap out of me, but at least the movies were interesting. Maybe it's the hindsight of having just better storytellers that have built upon Tolkein's work, but nevertheless those books just don't engage me.

To me the movie was a borefest, even more than the books. One of the few redeeming qualities of the books was the setting and they managed to butcher it.
I can tolerate the hollywood stupidity if it's accompanied by lots of sex and gore, but in a loooooooooong family-friendly movie? No, thanks.
...
Arkon
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 am

Re: Borgia show

Postby Galloglaich » Tue May 07, 2013 2:39 am

Well, speaking of TV... time to watch season 2 episode 7 of Borgia :)

G
Galloglaich
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Previous

Return to Abbey Pub

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron