The stupidity is unbearable

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The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Arkon » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:54 am

So, I heard that R.A. Salvatore's Drizzit was a rip-off of a character from a Robin Hood TV series. So, I checked it out on youtube and:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv3DFoR1RY
ghhhllll hggggggggghjhll llgtnrrnrreireoeoe AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby zarlor » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:37 pm

LOL! That show was so corny it was good. ;) To be honest, Salvatore's fight scenes aren't any better than that, though. The man is in desperate need of a HEMA class if he ever cared to make them seem even remotely reasonable.
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Arkon » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:54 pm

zarlor wrote:LOL! That show was so corny it was good. ;) To be honest, Salvatore's fight scenes aren't any better than that, though. The man is in desperate need of a HEMA class if he ever cared to make them seem even remotely reasonable.

He's also in a desprerate need for a writing class:
http://requireshate.wordpress.com/2011/ ... led-wahoo/

The worst thing is the comments under the video that applaud "excellent combat scenes" :D .
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby zarlor » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:19 pm

Arkon wrote:He's also in a desprerate need for a writing class:
http://requireshate.wordpress.com/2011/ ... led-wahoo/


Well, to each their own. There is a quite a bit of his writing that I really enjoyed in the past, mainly the Icewind Dale Trilogy and some of his Drizzt books (despite the crap fight scenes). I wouldn't call him a bad writer by any means and frankly the man has sold a crapload of books. So while his style might not be acceptable to some I think it's a stretch to say he can't write.
Lenny Zimmermann

"A soldier uses arms merely with skill, whereas a knight uses them with virtuous intention." - Pomponio Torelli, 1596.

- Systeme D'armes, New Orleans, Louisiana
http://www.sdanola.com
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Arkon » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:02 am

zarlor wrote:Well, to each their own. There is a quite a bit of his writing that I really enjoyed in the past, mainly the Icewind Dale Trilogy and some of his Drizzt books (despite the crap fight scenes). I wouldn't call him a bad writer by any means and frankly the man has sold a crapload of books. So while his style might not be acceptable to some I think it's a stretch to say he can't write.

I also liked his books when I was a teen before I have read any good literature. I attempted to re-read the second book of the Icewind Dale trilogy recently and simply couldn't finish it. When I tried to read it, crap fight scenes simply extended to crap everthing. All the writing about the horrible true nature of Entreri, Entreri displaying absurd sneaking skills, genius of Drizzit, etc. was simply unbearable. It was pure graphomania.

Selling a crapload of books isn't a sign of quality. Drizzit novels simply are appealing to teenage nerdy kids rebelling against teenage rebellion of other kids and the rotten nature of the world in general. Said audience usually doesn't have much reading experience outside other tie-in fiction and is incapable of judging quality of writing. And tie-in fiction in general tends to be plagued by bad writing.
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby zarlor » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:45 am

Arkon wrote:I also liked his books when I was a teen before I have read any good literature. I attempted to re-read the second book of the Icewind Dale trilogy recently and simply couldn't finish it. When I tried to read it, crap fight scenes simply extended to crap everthing. All the writing about the horrible true nature of Entreri, Entreri displaying absurd sneaking skills, genius of Drizzit, etc. was simply unbearable. It was pure graphomania.

Selling a crapload of books isn't a sign of quality. Drizzit novels simply are appealing to teenage nerdy kids rebelling against teenage rebellion of other kids and the rotten nature of the world in general. Said audience usually doesn't have much reading experience outside other tie-in fiction and is incapable of judging quality of writing. And tie-in fiction in general tends to be plagued by bad writing.


Considering I was in the 30s when I read those... wow, thanks for the insult that nobody outside of their teens could possibly find his writing was anything other than crap. Nice to know I'm that juvenile and apparently haven't read anything good in my 40 some years of reading. I never knew I was so completely ignorant. Thanks!
Lenny Zimmermann

"A soldier uses arms merely with skill, whereas a knight uses them with virtuous intention." - Pomponio Torelli, 1596.

- Systeme D'armes, New Orleans, Louisiana
http://www.sdanola.com
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Arkon » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:45 am

zarlor wrote:
Arkon wrote:I also liked his books when I was a teen before I have read any good literature. I attempted to re-read the second book of the Icewind Dale trilogy recently and simply couldn't finish it. When I tried to read it, crap fight scenes simply extended to crap everthing. All the writing about the horrible true nature of Entreri, Entreri displaying absurd sneaking skills, genius of Drizzit, etc. was simply unbearable. It was pure graphomania.

Selling a crapload of books isn't a sign of quality. Drizzit novels simply are appealing to teenage nerdy kids rebelling against teenage rebellion of other kids and the rotten nature of the world in general. Said audience usually doesn't have much reading experience outside other tie-in fiction and is incapable of judging quality of writing. And tie-in fiction in general tends to be plagued by bad writing.


Considering I was in the 30s when I read those... wow, thanks for the insult that nobody outside of their teens could possibly find his writing was anything other than crap. Nice to know I'm that juvenile and apparently haven't read anything good in my 40 some years of reading. I never knew I was so completely ignorant. Thanks!

You're welcome :) .

Though it doesn't have much with being juvenile. Feeling out of place in a depraved society isn't out of place when one is an adult. Actually, it kinda gets worse with every year XD .

Yeah, you're right, being ignorant isn't a prerequisite. I remember that my mother also liked Forgotten Realms novels despite being brought up on XIXth century literature.
In my case, I managed to not-read 90% of mandatory writing at school, so fantasy series was almost all that I have read. When I started reading more :monocle: stuff that relies on quality of writing instead of fantastic worlds and is actually well written enough to score awards given by people who studied literature and have read all the classics and stuff, something went *click* in my head and stuff below some levels became unreadable to me. Simply I can't read it without throwing it at the wall.
Also, lots of stuff that I have found good before landed in category "mediocre but enjoyable".
...
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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Galloglaich » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:10 pm

I lean a little more on Arkon's side of this but I too read at least one of those Drzzzt books. They had the ability to engage your escapism if you tried hard to suppress your critical thinking, though the fighting really gave me trouble, and it was between that and his panther reminding me a little too much of a He-Man cartoon that I finally gave up on it. But it did grab me for a little while - the setting of a Drow society was always kind of interesting and (to me) it was one of the best things DnD ever came up with - you need a cool villain for any genre fiction adventure literary or RPG, and the Drow were a cool villain, Salvatore ran with that pretty effectively. But it had it's limits and I agree it's basically young -adult literature and 'real' genre fiction is a lot better, so is real historical fiction (even more so in my opinion). I have the same issue with comic books though and people get really mad at me for it!

So speaking of which, what kind of genre fiction do you read? My taste for it declined sharply in recent years but I have come to realize I occasionally have the real need for some escape from all the primary source and academic history books I read these days.

My old favorites were Jack Vance (still holds up very well, such a sharp wit) for both fantasy and Sci Fi, Fritz Lieber (some of his stuff is still good, some makes you feel a little embarrassed) the ORIGINAL Robert E. Howard Conan (so long as you avoid the other authors this holds up quite well too), Lovecraft of course, Michael Moorcock (loved when I was a kid, Elric in particular is a better version of Drzzt I think, but I didn't find that it held up that well), Roger Zealazny (Chronicles of Amber, which I still appreciate but I think its more young adult fiction), Tolkein (definitely for the young). Oh and Michael Shey, he did this fantastic book called 'Nifft the Lean' which is worth seeking out.

For historical fiction I really liked some books by Mika Waltari, and Henri Seinkewiecz books though those are not easy reads especially his Teutonic Knights book which is fascinating but had a bad translation.

For Sci Fi, Stanislaw Lem for thought provoking and often sardonically amusing Sci Fi, Philip K. Dick for trippy hip paranoia and eerily accurate predictions of our current dystopia, Theodore Sturgeon, Arthur C. Clarke (arguably the sharpest 'hard sci fi' mind out there), Heinlein (who was a good futurist but who I've soured on a bit mainly for political reasons), Harry Harrison (for some very amusing satire of Heinlein, among other things, though a lot of his stuff is more suitable for younger audiences, the first half of Bill the Galactic Hero still makes me laugh out loud), Frank Herbert of course, Larry Nivven and Jerry Pournelle (sharply created sci fi universes but I like them less and less for the same reason as Heinlein - you can see the political preaching through the fiction a little too clearly as you get older)

Right now I'm reading The Mongoliad which is a little bit stupid, but the fencing / fight scenes are pretty good which keeps me engaged, plus I like the setting ... started reading it in the airport and I'm like halfway through the book. It's reminding me of the value of escapism sometimes even when it's not truly brilliant.

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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Galloglaich » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:10 pm

Also just because something is a little childish doesn't mean it's not also fun. I love the first Conan movie, but there is no doubt it's childish, cartoonish, even compared to the actual (original) Conan novels.

It doesn't compare to say, Blade Runner as a film but I'm equally likely to watch it if it comes on cable. There are different 'layers' of entertainment, so to speak.

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Re: The stupidity is unbearable

Postby Daeruin » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:12 am

I think the "different levels of entertainment" idea is a good one to keep in mind, along with "different strokes for different folks." I've never read Salvatore, but the examples in the post Arkon linked to were pretty awful, in my opinion. But they're kind of thing that you might ignore if you don't care much about style and nuance and you're being entertained by other aspects of the story. I know at least one guy whose taste and opinion I respect quite a bit who still defends Salvatore's Drizzt novels. He enjoyed them despite their flaws, and that's cool. I think it's the same with visual entertainment, like the Conan movies. I think Dr. Who is another example. I know so many people who love that show, but I've seen several episodes and I can barely stomach the stuff. That doesn't mean people who enjoy it are juvenile or stupid. But it does make it hard for me not to lambast and complain about it, because I think it's so awful. I'm sure I enjoy some things that others think are stupid, too.

I've never really been into sci-fi, and I haven't read a lot of truly classic fantasy other than Tolkien. I've never read Howard, Lovecraft, Moorcock, or Zelazny. Right now I'm really enjoying R. Scott Bakker, Patrick Rothfuss, and Robin Hobb. If you want some interesting historical fiction mixed with fantasy I'd recommend Gene Wolfe's Soldier of the Mist series. It follows a mercenary with a strange memory disorder who fought for Xerxes at the Battle of Plataea. I recently finished Erikson's Gardens of the Moon and really enjoyed it.
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