Dressage

The place to discuss the new Martial Feats.

Re: Dressage

Postby Daeruin » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:09 am

Since attacks of opportunity and counterattacks both have general rules and don't require feats, I'd rather this rule didn't either. There could still be some feats to enhance how it works. The Martial Pool already does this a little bit, because you can hold dice in reserve to help you react to what others do, but the problem is you're limited in what you can react to. You can defend yourself against attacks, but that's all.

What about this:

When you end your turn and hold some MP dice in reserve, you can use them to interrupt any later person's action.

Is that game-breaking? It would give a bigger advantage to people with higher initiatives, but that's as it should be in my opinion. It should be easier for faster people to react to slower people instead of sitting around frozen. As it is, a high initiative only gets an advantage on the first turn of combat.

Here's another option:

Anytime someone attempts to leaves your threat zone and you have MP dice left, you can choose either to make an attack of opportunity or to perform a move of opportunity by spending MP dice on movement to follow them. You most be capable of performing the movement, and you must end your movement with them in your threat zone.

Just throwing out ideas. I really like this idea and would love to see it implemented in one way or another.
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Re: Dressage

Postby drkguy3107 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:05 pm

I love the idea of following someone, because I have had games where archers move to just right outside of melee, and the point blank shooting people, where in reality you would just follow them.
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Re: Dressage

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:32 am

I agree it's a cool idea, but I think we need to be careful how to balance it. It's very powerful.

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Re: Dressage

Postby Daeruin » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:20 am

The idea doesn't seem overpowered to me. It's really no worse than allowing counterattacks out of turn. I'd say it's less powerful than AoOs and counterattacks, because you're not doing damage at all. It's purely a tactical option. Plus as it's currently written, it only triggers by leaving a threat zone, and you have t have MP dice left, so it's not like you'll have people running all over the map out of turn.

It could probably use some playtesting in any case, just to make sure you don't run into something really game-breaking. You could make it a higher level feat or something if you feel it needs to be limited. There are other feats dedicated almost solely to changing range and such, so making it a feat might make sense.

Maybe you could add a feat or two that counteracts it, kind of how Inscrutable Countenance gives you a bonus against feints. Let someone make a Bluff check or a feint to get away without provoking a move of opportunity. It would also be beneficial to have a higher move so if people try to follow they still can't catch you, so feats like Fleet become more appealing.

I'm definitely going to try something like this in my game. I think I'll try it out this Saturday.
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Re: Dressage

Postby Galloglaich » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:33 am

Lots to say on this... but I just got home after a 14 hour day. No time yet. Hopefully soon. Definitely going to do something with this idea.

If you do the playtest of it please post description!

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Re: Dressage

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Ok so, first of all I think this is a great idea.

Second, I do think it's a little powerful, but only in this sense: keep in mind, a first level character only has 1 MP so they are very limited in their ability to both move and fight. Also, I think you could 'scale-in' many layers of this ability. So it makes sense to me to make this something acquired and not universal.

Third, I think we are really dealing with two seperate things here, a 'cavalry' ability, and an 'infantry' version.

From fencing and playing various combat type games in my youth, and also spending a lot of time in my later youth participating in bar brawls, I noticed that less experienced people often just tend to 'sit there' when the fighting starts, and only react or move when their group is moving. Conversely, more 'high-speed' type individuals will move rapidly from one place to another, avoiding concentrations of enemies, taking advantage of distracted opponents to quickly flank and attack them. One or two people like this are worth several more typical people in a bar brawl, I can tell you that from experience. In the Codex Rules this would also definitely be the case, since ganging up on someone when they are out of MP is one of the best ways to kill people.

This seems (to me) to require a higher level of both physical mobility and a higher level of situaitonal awareness than is average. That said, what is average today among ordinary people may be more common among warriors or soldiers in the pre-industrial past.

But I do see this as a feat. The on-foot version might require situational awareness MF and mobility Feat. The latter would dovetail well with it since it allows for a Free Dice for extra movement.

I also think there may be different layers of this (possibly different MF) In a way, it represents a different, distinct fighting style to me. So maybe for example you could have one level where you are able to move defensively, avoid being penned in for example. Another level where you could move aggressively - react to someone else moving away, or moving toward one of your comrades.

This is also a fundamental type of thing in cavalry warfare, it's really what cavalry warfare is all about - avoiding concentrations of the enemy and using movement to achieve local numerical superiority against them. I think this might be just one of several interesting new MF we could do for cavlary.

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Re: Dressage

Postby drkguy3107 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:59 pm

I think it should be universal for infantry at least. I think having 4 dice shows that you are an experienced fighting. Also, we don't want to reach a critical mass, where it is impossible to make good characters, because there are too many MF's. I don't think a lot more MF's in the same vein as sidestep need to be introduced.

Cavalry on the other hand has almost none.
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Re: Dressage

Postby Daeruin » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:08 am

I found the following feats in Pathfinder recently.

Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.

Following Step (Combat)
You can repeatedly close the distance when foes try to move away, without impeding your normal movement.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Step Up.
Benefit: When using the Step Up feat to follow an adjacent foe, you may move up to 10 feet. You may still take a 5-foot step during your next turn, and any movement you make using this feat does not subtract any distance from your movement during your next turn.
Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.

Step Up and Strike (Combat)
When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make an attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee attack against that foe at your highest base attack bonus. This attack counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round. Using this feat does not count toward the number of actions you can usually take each round.
Normal: You can usually only take one standard action and one 5-foot step each round.
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Re: Dressage

Postby Galloglaich » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:08 pm

Very interesting Dearun. Seems to be right along the lines of what we were thinking of, except not having a pool they have to make up special movement rules, and being DnD, they only go one-way (toward their opponent) since in a typical DnD game the players never run away.

I was thinking about this a bit more and I think I came up with a possible 'compromise' position. As usual, for guidance I go to historical sources, so in the real world...

You had archers, crossbowmen, and infantry

You had heavy and light troops (in terms of the armor they wore / owned)

You had cavalry and infantry

...and you had regular and irregular fighters.


So for example, if you were in the militia you might be a light infantry regular (pikeman), a heavy infantry regular (halberdier or spearman), a regular archer (et al), or an irregular archer (et al), in other words a skirmisher, or an irregular light (peltast, rotolero) or heavy infantry, (such as two handed swordsman)

The same breakdown also worked for cavalry, though the lines blurred a bit more in some areas. Thus you have cavalry archers, light and heavy cavalry, and regular and irregular - the latter would be for example Ottoman Sipahi vs. Ghazi. Then there are also pirates and saiors / marines of course, who would have mostly ship-board related skills but tactical movement would also be important there, as for skirmishers.

Each of these types of fighter would have certain feats that went along with their training. A regular would have a lot of group - fighting abilities, the ability to march, stay in formation, understand military signals and so on. A skirmisher would have infantry tactical movement abilities. Cavalry would have riding abilities, and so forth.

So I'm thinking you could have some new classes for people who want to stick a little closer to DnD / pathfinder norms, where you would have bonus feats some of which would be related to movement. Sort of the (to me, corny) way a ranger chooses between a two-weapon fighting path vs. a missile weapon path in 3.X. I'm working on a lifepath character generation system which would be a bit more fine-grained than this, but some new 'core classes' in this vein would give you a default method of getting yet more combat related feats fairly simply and in shorter order.

And to me such specialization rings a bit more true. I don't think all cavalry would be as quick on their feet, nor all infantry have much of any idea how to ride a horse. Some people would and do have both sets of abilities, but this would be reflected by multi-classing. For example while a French Knight might be 6th level heavy cavalry, an English Knight might be 3rd level heavy cavalry / 3rd level heavy infantry.

Make sense at all?

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Re: Dressage

Postby drkguy3107 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:14 am

I personally don't think the classes need anymore changes for me, but my classes are all customized, and there is some adaptability built into the system. One can always remove a class ability to substitute for a feat.
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