New Feat: Schnappen

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New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Galloglaich » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:52 am

Schnappen (‘Snapping’)
“When you strike an Underhau from the right side, if he drops with his sword on top of yours do that you cannot come up with it, so go swiftly with the pommel over his sword and cut with powerful movement with the long edge against the head. Or if he drops onto your sword towards your left side, so cut him with the short edge.”
-Joachim Meyer 1570

Snapping. This is similar to Zucken, when you cut around to another opening, but you use pressure at the bind to make a very powerful counterattack.
Prerequisites: Fuhlen MF, Counterstroke MF
Benefits:
1) You may use the pressure from your enemies weapon in a bind to attack him at another opening, usually alternating between true and false edges. To do this you must commit at least two MP to defense; if you succeed at defense you make an immediate counterattack. If you achieve a bind (tie roll) or if you roll a natural 20 (automatic counter) you may then apply half of the dice that your opponent used in their attack against you, rounded down, to attack them (as Free Dice). So for example if you are attacked with 4 dice, you defend with 2 and achieve a bind, you then gain 2 Free Dice for your counterstroke in addition to your remaining pool and any other MF.
2) If you enter into a bind and do not want to be in one, you gain a Free Dice for any attempt to avoid exploitation of the bind by your opponent, including but not limited to Winden or Mutierin, with the restriction that you your self may not then make any aggressive action or MF from the bind.
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby drkguy3107 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm

Ok, so what if you don't get a bind or a 20, you put 2 dice into the defense and succeed, do you get to use the same two on your counterattack, or does it just give you the option?

In that scenario it would be little different than just plain counterstroke (minus the bonus die to leave a bind, and the free dice possiblity)

Overall I like it, especially the power that could be put into a counterattack :twisted:. However I feel that binds are rather rare. How often a night do you experience binds? I know my group is bad becuz we don't do our math in a way that pays attention to them (we normally just calculate what number is needed to hit. Then if he hits, hurrah, thus forgetting to check for binds.
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Galloglaich » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Binds are rare, but I don't want them to be. We usually also forget about them as well. Codex attracts the poor arithmetic set I think. I also usually just subtract the "To Hit" bonus from the "Active Defense" bonus before rolling the dice so I can have only one number to worry about.

We had one guy in our last session however who had a bunch of MF related to binds. He would look out for Binds and often noticed them. Another guy was a grappler and liked to close in a lot and grab enemies weapons, so he noticed them too.

But I think generally people don't look for it, since playing these games were are conditioned to only look for max or min die rolls (criticals or fumbles)


I was trying to think of how to make Binds more noticable or prominent. One thing which occured to me is to follow what I saw the players doing already (usually a good idea as a general rule) and make it into a 'game within the game', i.e., part of using these bind related feats is to notice when you are in a bind before it's too late (some other action has taken place in the game). So players who have cool MF which are triggered by Binds will be incentivised to look for them - it's kind of a 'gotcha' for the opponent. So if you missed it, you missed it, you can't go back after say, damage has been rolled or whatever. I like to keep going like this because I hate going back on anything that has already happened - messes up my suspension of disbelief and slows everything down. This also actually mirrors what happens in a real fight: you can do great things during a bind but it's very hard to be aware and 'indes' (or 'in the moment') enough to notice when you are in a bind ! That is the paradox of it.

The down side of this system is that it still puts a burden on the DM to notice binds for enemies, monsters and NPC's which he or she may not be attuned to.

To make this more functional though, I was also musing on ways to make binds more common. So lets say for example the attacker rolls a 15, the defender rolls two dice, a 15 and an 18. He may actually prefer to pick the lower number in order to initiate a bind. But then, how could we give the attacker the same advantage? Who gets to choose first? I haven't worked this out. Maybe the guy with initiative gets to choose, UNLESS you have a MF like Fuhlen, in which case you get to choose. That might be cool.

You could make binds a lot more common if you made a rule that ANY tie die roll in ANY of the dice automatically caused a bind. But this would make binds more likely in multi-dice attacks / defenses. Which might actually be more realistic but I'm not sure.

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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby drkguy3107 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:48 pm

In the event of a bind no damage is done off of the attack correct? Because that rule would ruin the game, because if I roll 2 die, I get an 18 and a 3, you roll a 3 and a 6, so now we have a bind and I haven't hit you. It really wouldn't work. I would love for binds to be more common, but I am not sure how, isn't the only method right now a tie, or using the speaking window mf?
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Daeruin » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:01 pm

Binds are rare enough that it almost makes all the bind-related feats not worth it, especially considering most bind-related feats are limited to certain weapons. I agree that binds need to be made more common somehow. I mean, there's the potential for a bind almost every time opposing swords meet, right? It's just that the moment passes by so quickly it's hard to take advantage of. To the untrained, it's just a passing millisecond that doesn't really mean anything to the fight, but to those who know what they're doing, the bind can be exploited much more often. It makes me wonder if the binding rule should even be a generic rule at all. Maybe there should be a feat that you have to get before binds even become a possibility. That way, if you want to make a character whose strategy relies on the bind, you'll be doing it intentionally, and all those bind-related feats suddenly become much more attractive and useful. And then you could implement the rule that any result on any tie is a bind, to reflect the fact that fighters trained to look for it will find it more often and be able to exploit it better. You could also fold in the idea that opposing natural 20s would result in a bind instead of a critical hit like we were talking about in the other thread.

I like the new Schnappen feat because it reflects the fact that trained fighters who are really looking to exploit the bind can get more counterattack opportunities, and occasionally bust out with a really devastating counterattack. Would this feat trump a critical hit then?

Doesn't Counterstroke occur before the enemy's first attack? Whereas Schnappen would occur only after a successful active defense, as long as you committed 2 dice. If your active defense happened to achieve a bind or a natural 20, you get the free dice on your counterattack.
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Galloglaich » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:34 pm

Counterstroke is after their first attack, so it's a good way to interrupt the strategy of using multiple 1 die attacks, but not useful against the single big multi-die attack.

As for the various ideas on Bind rules above, I guess I'd have to crunch some numbers on that to figure out how much it would increase the likeleyhood.

Even assuming it's only triggered by a tie roll on your 'chosen' die, does that mean a tie in the 'natural' die roll (for the die you used) or a tie for the 'computed' die roll (i.e. your die plus your attack / defense bonus) or both? Or what? I can't remember.

At the very least I should probably spell all that out a bit more clearly in the rules.

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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Daeruin » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:42 am

My bad on Counterstroke. You're right. So they are very similar, but Schnappen as written would have the limitation that you have to commit 2 dice to active defense and then succeed while having the advantage that you gain free dice for the counterattack. Plus you get free dice to avoid exploitation of the bind by your opponent. By the way, what does that mean exactly? The only use I can think of would be for active defense versus attacks that get triggered from the bind. You might want to make that more explicit.

For binds I always thought it was the natural die result that counted, not the final calculation. It seems like using the final calculation would make them even more rare because of all the possible bonuses/penalties involved.
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby drkguy3107 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:31 am

A bind means the attack didn't succeed, if you have any natural roll count, then an attack which would hit, would be blocked. if I roll 5, and you roll 5, even if I have plus 6 and you have plus 0, it means you blocked an 11 on a 5.
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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Galloglaich » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Daeruin wrote:My bad on Counterstroke. You're right. So they are very similar, but Schnappen as written would have the limitation that you have to commit 2 dice to active defense and then succeed while having the advantage that you gain free dice for the counterattack. Plus you get free dice to avoid exploitation of the bind by your opponent. By the way, what does that mean exactly? The only use I can think of would be for active defense versus attacks that get triggered from the bind. You might want to make that more explicit.


It would mean Free Dice for active defense basically, against something like a Mutierin or someone trying to grab your blade. In real life, they advise you to disengage from any Master, because the Master is very good at winding (all the techniques from the bind) so if you notice a bind you should 'snap' away from it ASAP or else you are toast. This of course makes you a bit more predictable but since the Master is persumably older you can take advantage of your (ostensible) better reflexes.

For binds I always thought it was the natural die result that counted, not the final calculation. It seems like using the final calculation would make them even more rare because of all the possible bonuses/penalties involved.


We used the natural die as well though I never reall spell it out in the rules (I should do so) and there is an issue which drrkguy brings up that I will address in a minute.

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Re: New Feat: Schnappen

Postby Galloglaich » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:42 pm

drkguy3107 wrote:A bind means the attack didn't succeed, if you have any natural roll count, then an attack which would hit, would be blocked. if I roll 5, and you roll 5, even if I have plus 6 and you have plus 0, it means you blocked an 11 on a 5.


Well ok, lets think this through. In real life (which I always try to emualte as much as possible, since it saves me a lot of time and effort trying to balance things) when you get a bind it usually means you can block the other persons attack (or were blocked) but you sometimes also get hit at the same time.

Often for the defender this manifests itself as -you got 'a piece of' their strike, but they still 'blew through' a little, so you got hit on your mask or your shoulder or something, usually lightly, becuase you probably didn't get fully into your guard before they struck. A judge in a tournament may call this as a double-hit or may just ignore it (more often the former though). A tie roll with the 'natural' die should be a pretty rare occurance, generally, I think it's 1 in 20 chance so 5%, but I think drrkguy does have a point that if you have +10 on your die roll and the other guy has a +1, and you both roll a 10, you will feel like you should get the hit. Then again a fumble (natural 1) and a Crit (natural 20) are also 5% chances and are common in all the D20 games.

So on the one hand, maybe it's not really that big a deal to get a bind randomly with a 5% chance. Especially since not everyone has bind-related Feats.

On the other hand, I wonder if it might be a good idea that sometimes a bind DOESN'T stop a hit completely in the game? Like you got the bind, and can therefore do whatever your action is, (a Mutierin, or grapple their weapon, or whatever) but you may have still gotten hit. Or is that putting too find a point on it?

And to put an even finer point on it, if you get a bind in your defense should that take some of the 'bite' out of a hit? (Or a critical hit?) If so, how?

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