I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

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I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Galloglaich » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:10 am

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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Daeruin » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:04 pm

In his first video, he shoots 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds. In the second, he shoots 11 arrows in 8 seconds (IIRC). He admits that he has to sacrifice accuracy. Even that video where he shoots three disks thrown into the air while walking backwards isn't at great range. It's really close.

You know what it reminds me of? The Flurry of Blows ability of the monk. You get lots of fast attacks at the expense of accuracy. For Codex, it would be like getting lots of extra attacks, but only being able to spend one die on each extra attack. No free dice, less chance of a crit and higher chance of misses and fumbles. It would probably require a pretty high BAB prerequisite to account for all the training.
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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:57 pm

Probably also at the expense of power, I would guess.

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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby drkguy3107 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:01 pm

Feat, Snap Shot
preq: rapid shot, point blank shot
you can fire an arrow without having to prep, -10 on range increments, and damage is stepped down.
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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:09 pm

drkguy3107 wrote:Feat, Snap Shot
preq: rapid shot, point blank shot
you can fire an arrow without having to prep, -10 on range increments, and damage is stepped down.


Makes sense... I think Snap Shot is a SRD feat isn't it? Maybe I just need to modify one of those. Would also need to specify you have to carry arrows in your off hand.

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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Daeruin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:31 pm

"You can fire an arrow without having to prep." What kind of prep are you avoiding? Drawing an arrow is a free action, so as long as you have your bow in hand there's nothing to prepare.

I couldn't find Snap Shot in the d20 SRD, but it's definitely in Pathfinder:

Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

My own suggestion would be, as I mentioned earlier, to model it after the monk's Flurry of Blows ability, where they get one extra attack per round but take a -2 penalty to all attacks. So they get the usual extra attacks at levels 6, 11, and 16, plus another extra attack at levels 8 and 15. By the time they are level 18, they can attack 7 times per round. That's pretty close to the rate of fire shown in the video you linked. If you give them penalties to hit, damage, and range, that might be a good compromise. It might be too much to cram into a single feat, but maybe you could make it a chain of feats.

Rapid Shot also pretty much does this already, it just gives you one extra ranged attack per round. So you could add two more feats into that chain to give them two more extra attacks, but with increasing penalties.

Rapid Shot I (unchanged)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You get a Free Die for one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. You may only use this Free Die for an extra attack and may not combine any other MP dice or Free Dice with this attack.

Rapid Shot II
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot I, BAB +6.
Benefit: You get a Free Die for another extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. You may only use this Free Die for an extra attack and may not combine any other MP dice or Free Dice with this attack. This attack takes a -2 penalty to hit, a -10 penalty to range increments, and a decrease of one step on damage.

Rapid Shot III
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot II, BAB +12.
Benefit: You get a Free Die for one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. You may only use this Free Die for an extra attack and may not combine any other MP dice or Free Dice with this attack. This attack takes a -4 penalty to hit, a -20 penalty to range increments, and a decrease of two steps on damage.

If they use each of their regular MP dice to make a single shot, plus all three of these feats, they could get off 7 shots per round, but only using one die per attack, plus the extra penalties on the last two attacks. Maybe those penalties, plus the feat investment, is too severe, I don't know. On a related note, can anyone explain to me why it makes sense to have Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite for all of the ranged combat feats? I've never understood that. Wouldn't it make more sense to use Weapon Focus (Ranged) as a prerequisite?
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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Daeruin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:34 pm

Oh, and yeah, you'd have to specify that they need to carry the arrows in their hand, not in a quiver. Maybe require an MP die to get the arrows properly in hand, but then you can go ahead and shoot at the increased rate as long as you have arrows in your hand. Probably no more than about 12 arrows at a time.
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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:57 pm

Makes sense, but I was thinking instead of the Free Dice to just lower the prep time of the weapon.

So in your example where there might be a couple of layers of this Feat (which makes sense to me) you would gain -1 prep time in exchange for -10 feet range increment and one step-down of damage. With the second Feat you get -2 prep time for a further -15 (-20?) feet range increment. That way the first Feat would be sufficient to shoot very fast (0 prep time) with a light bow, and you would need both Feats to shoot that fast with a heavier bow with a prep time of 2.

How does that sound?

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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Daeruin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:04 pm

Ahhh, I was totally forgetting about Codex Martialis's prep rules. :oops: Now I feel like an idiot. My mind has been in Pathfinder too much lately.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. With your idea a light bow would get a shot every 1.5 seconds or so (4 shots in 6 seconds). With Rapid Shot, they'd be shooting every 1.2 seconds (5 shots in 6 seconds).

I just watched that video again. At 0:52, he shoots 7 arrows in 6 seconds, but you can see that he's barely pulling back the string. Right after that, he shoots 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... bb3g#t=52s

So theoretically you should be able to shoot much faster. Not sure how you'd do that without granting more free dice, and probably stepping damage down again.
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Re: I wonder if we need a new archery feat?

Postby Galloglaich » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:53 pm

Well, I think so long as we get into the range of possibility. We don't know how many takes he did to get those results. I think 4 or 5 shots in a round would be pretty scary, especially with the potential for crits.

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